God said to Moses, " I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ( but not Esau ) ... Limited Atonement / Particular Redemption

Randy ®

2009-01-13 02:22:46 UTC

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:36:15 -0500,
In Newsgroup: alt.religion.christian.biblestudy

Post by old man joe
" He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6
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but of Esau God says... " but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a
desolation, and [appointed] his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
Mal. 1:3

Which doesn't fix the extent of Christ's atonement as limited.

Post by old man joe
perhaps hated even more then unconditional election, that is, grace
" freely bestowed, " is the doctrine of Limited Atonement.

False dichotomy. You can believe in unconditional election
without believing in Limited atonement. or universal salvation

Post by old man joe
Limited here means
redemption is directed only to those chosen by God in eternity past to be the objects
of His saving love, mercy and grace apart from works good or evil, as we read in Eph.
1:3-12 and Ro. 9: 6-13.

Election pertains to the application of Christ's atonement,
not it's value. It's value is infinite, since He died, which
is the penalty for each and every sin. It's application is
limited, since God only applies it to the elect, through
faith.

Post by old man joe
if Christ died for everyone, everyone is saved and there is no truth in the
world... since the sons of Satan do their evil works daily while the elect repent.

ibid. The blood of the Passover Lamb doesn't effect salvation
unless and until it is applied to the doorpost of the house
(soul). Otherwise, the elect would be born saved, and
wouldn't have to be born again, or even believe in Christ at
all.

Post by old man joe
but the Word of God teaches emphatically that redemption is directed solely at
those whom God has chosen to be the heirs of promise.

No, it does not, and you can't quote a single verse that
teaches any such thing. Quoting a verse that says Christ died
for the elect no more proves He died only for the elect, than
quoting the verse in Galatians, that says Christ gave Himself
for Paul, therefore proves Christ died _only_ for Paul.

You're simply confusing the value of the atonement with the
application of the atonement. The value is infinite. The
application is limited.

Post by old man joe
these alone are adopted into
the family of God and have received His gift of life everlasting in the Presence of
Christ Jesus being filled with His Holy Spirit to know Him.

Because God chose to apply the value of the atonement only to
the elect, not because the value of the atonement is limited.

Post by old man joe
the world belonging to Satan can not make this boast in the Lord since God made
their " mountains a desolation and his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness
"... all Semitic symbols of death eternal.

ibid.

Post by old man joe
again, it is recorded of Esau that he was a " godless person "...
( Heb. 12:16 ) the term ' godless ' here means " barred from entrance to the Temple
of God. " this being Esau's position in the world it is contrary to say God loved
Esau less... loved less by God results in eternal damnation from cradle to grave and
can not be called " loveless " at all. it is called " hate. " Ps. 5:4-6

ibid.

Post by old man joe
giving God all of the glory for salvation by grace freely bestowed on His adopted
children requires that heralder's speak the truth concerning all things of the One
with whom we have to do.

And the Bible plainly teaches that the world Christ came to
save includes those who ultimately reject and believe not His
word (John 12:47ff.), and even the false teachers who "deny
the Lord who bought them", bringing on themselves swift
destruction.

Further, John 3, 5, 12, and 15 all show that the lost are
condemned because they do not believe in Christ as their
Savior. God will not condemn people for failing to believe a
lie.

Meanwhile, nothing renders the non-elect more worthy of
eternal hell fire, than the fact they rejected a free offer of
salvation through Christ.

Post by old man joe
to preach that everyone is saved is a demonic lie

To claim that everyone who believes the value of Christ's
atonement is not limited, preaches that "everyone is saved",
is a demonic lie. Only the elect will be saved, and the rest
will be hardened.

That has nothing to do with the value of Christ's atonement,
but rather, with the application of the blood. God puts the
blood on the doorpost of the elect souls, through faith, and
does not put it on the doorpost of the non-elect.

Post by old man joe
as well
as saying one must fill a condition to be saved from the penalty of one's sins.

Not disputed.

Post by old man joe
if it were true that Christ died for everyone the Bible would be replete with such
statements rather than recording " He gave His life a ransom for many. "

It is. It says He tasted death for "every man". It says He
is the propitiation not only for our sins, but also for the
sins of the "whole world". It further defines "world", as
including those who ultimately reject and believe not Christ's
word. It says He died for the false teachers who deny the
Lord who bought them. It says Christ is the savior of all
men, especially them that believe.

Further, John 3, 5, 12, & 16 directly state those who do not
believe will be condemned _because_ they do not believe on
Christ. God will not condemn men for failing to believe a
lie.

Post by old man joe
Mt.
20:28... the comparable term in 1 Tim. 2:6 " a ransom for all, " can mean only
" all " of the elect...

See what I mean? No matter what language the Bible uses, the
limited atonement heretic is forced to eisegete the word
"elect" into that passage. Why? Just because it doesn't seem
reasonable to him that it could possibly mean anything else.

Post by old man joe
otherwise there is a pardon which doesn't pardon;

The sacrifice of the Passover Lamb doesn't pardon anyone.
Rather, it is the basis upon which God is able to pardon those
whom He chooses. The blood still has to be applied to the
doorpost of the house, before the pardon occurs.

God applies the blood to the doorpost of the elect's soul. He
does not apply it to the doorpost of the non-elect. Therefore,
the elect are pardoned, and the non-elect are not.

Post by old man joe
a Savior
who failed at Calvary

Limited atonement heretics are the ones who promote a failed
Savior, stating Christ's death failed to pay for all sin.

Post by old man joe
and election to salvation is completed for everyone... no need
for Judgement Day nor the Lake of Fire for man.

False dichotomy. You're pretending that anyone who doesn't
hold to the limited atonement heresy must be Arminian, and
teach universal salvation. They do not.

The blood pays for all sin. However, the blood of atonement
has to be applied, before it takes effect. Otherwise the
elect would be born saved, and faith in Christ wouldn't even
be necessary.

On the contrary. Even the elect have to be born again, and
saved, which proves there's a difference between having your
sins paid for, and having the value of that payment applied to
your account.

Thus the elect are saved, because God applies the blood to
their soul through faith, and the non-elect are condemned,
because He did not (John 3, 5, 12, 16).

Post by old man joe
if Christ died for everyone then the word " many ' really means
" all " without exception... " all in Adam live "... and election to salvation is
completely unconditional while the Fundamentalists preach salvation to be
conditional, while yet preaching it to be unconditional.

"If...then...and...while...yet". The Limited atonement heresy
is not derived from exegesis, but from human reasoning.

Post by old man joe
such confusion is of the devil who desires a world in which he reigns and men are
pacified into thinking they are able to adopt themselves into the family of God
through the good work of co-redemption... the glory goes to man through Satan who
has " blinded the minds of the unbelieving. " how could this be since Christ died
for everyone ?

Another false dichotomy. You're trying to claim that anyone
who doesn't accept that Christ's atonement failed to pay for
all sins, must therefore teach that man saves himself. That
is not the case.

--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5